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Post by apelpis on Mar 5, 2008 4:22:12 GMT -5
Aw c'mon.
The Twins' sound, to the uninitiated, non-obsessed *normal* happy shiny people who for the most part will read the reviews is most definitely gothic.
The rest of us, being the sociopaths that we are, dwell. And make a big deal about how Lanegan intones "hallelujah" or Dulli screams "bay-behhh-yehhh". We're in the red and dig it, not the magazines.
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Post by alyosha on Mar 5, 2008 5:23:17 GMT -5
In response to e, I think "Saturnalia" is ethereal. It's so heavenly in fact, it is ineffable. The words of the critics don't amount to much, but it is nice to see the Twins getting the recognition and acclaim they obviously deserve. The first time I heard "The Stations" and some of the others posted on myspace, I was immediately infected and implacably drawn in and under. It felt visceral, and I could feel the auspicious effects of the songs in my mind and in my body. I have been reading Hegel extensively lately (the famous German philosopher) and I was especially fascinated and pleased by the title as it ties explicitly into his master/slave, lord/bondsman dialectic. I have been a devoted fan of Lanegan and Dulli's for a number of years (since "Sweet Oblivion" and "Gentlemen") and "Saturnalia" to me is the embodiment of both artists unequivocally, mind-blowing talents. Listening to "Saturnalia" for me is a purely sensual and edifying experience. Like most awe-inspiring art, "Saturnalia" summons a feeling in me that transcends the barriers and confines of language. My intention to articulate the poignancy of "Saturnalia" is rendered moot because language is so replete with universals, biases, formulas, sciences etc. Moreover, as Nietzsche says, "Suppose one judged the value of a piece of music according to how much of it could be counted, calculated, and expressed in formulas--how absurd such a 'scientific' evaluation of music would be! What would one have comprehended, understood, recognized? Nothing, really nothing of what is 'music' in it!" (The Gay Science, Book Five: We Fearless Ones, 239). So I guess it's all the more ironic that I have posted a plethora of reviews here on the forum, and then go ahead and assert what I just have... Nevertheless, I am delighted to see Lanegan and Dulli receive accolades. "Saturnalia" feels like.... being inundated by a sumptuous reverie---shot through with a magnificent and compelling maelstrom of feeling. "Saturnalia" is ....
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Post by maidli2 on Mar 5, 2008 6:27:10 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]WOW[/glow] The words of the critics don't amount to much The first time I heard "The Stations" and some of the others posted on myspace, I was immediately infected and implacably drawn in and under. It felt visceral, and I could feel the auspicious effects of the songs in my mind and in my body. The same for both point, really, but i cant express myself as well as you
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Post by Stephanie on Mar 5, 2008 9:34:32 GMT -5
In response to e, I think "Saturnalia" is ethereal. It's so heavenly in fact, it is ineffable. Alyosha...! Loved reading your thoughts. This has me wanting to read some Hegel. I'm glad I'm not the only philosophically inclined nerd here I agree that there is something ethereal about the album. These guys are obviously still "down in the dark" but the light breaks through in a lot of places, like light filtering through stained glass windows into the dark nave of a cathedral. I can feel this album bodily as well. And in my heart. I relate to the struggle with the black beast, but I'm not sure it's ever been as bad for me as it sounds like it's been for Mark and Greg. Feel a lot of compassion listening to this. Hope that these guys find peace someday.
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Post by maidli2 on Mar 5, 2008 17:05:44 GMT -5
While listening to my fav, idle hands, it really looks like an afghan whigs song, 100% built like a copy of the "gentlemen" LP (i adore !!)
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Post by Stephanie on Mar 5, 2008 21:58:10 GMT -5
This review is so poorly written, I literally was laughing out loud by the second paragraph. Maybe English isn't the writer's first language?
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Post by alyosha on Mar 6, 2008 0:39:25 GMT -5
Stephanie, I enjoyed your "cathedral" epithet. It is an analogy that is close to being commensurate with the weight and draw of one aspect of the obviously rich and dynamic album. And you should definitely read Hegel. I would recommend reading "The Phenomenology of Spirit**." **Spirit however is a poor approximation of what it is supposed to mean in German, it's more like "the Phenomenology of Geist." Geist in German means three things: mind, spirit and ghost. Thus the title is more like, "The Phenomenology of Mind, Spirit and Ghost (all being equal parts of geist)." Moreover, Hegel is a monumental figure with regards to continental philosophical thought. Everything Marx wrote and popularized is haunted by a Hegelian framework. That being said, Marx tried to repudiate Hegel's works by saying the world is governed exclusively by materialism and commerce. Marx is fervently calling for revolution, whereas Hegel is more of an evolutionary thinker. Anyways, if you are interested in the likes of Marx, Nietzsche, Kafka, Heidegger, or Freud just to name a few, you will certainly relish reading Hegel. Each one of these aforesaid authors have created a dialogue in response to Hegel. Alas, I have digressed far from the Gutter Twins (at least it appears that way). To bring it back full-cycle, I do see Hegel's master/slave dialectic entwined in both the festival of "Saturnalia" and saturated throughout this glorious album. Here's a brief summary on the master/slave dialectic from wikipedia (I hate referring to wikipedia but it might be able to give you a general impression of the master/slave dialectic): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave-master_dialecticAlso, have any of you read the press clippings for the Gutter Twins over at "Summer's Kiss"? They have posted a number of mini interviews along with reviews etc. Check it out: www.summerskiss.com/category/gtpress/
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Post by Stephanie on Mar 6, 2008 14:33:23 GMT -5
I'm having trouble understanding which part of the self / mind / consciousness Hegel says is the "master" and which is the "slave." Could you illuminate me here? I'm also interested in how you see this concept play out on Saturnalia.This is interesting. Found it when trying to find more about Hegel's dialectic. I can definitely see the dialectics described in the linked article playing out on Saturnalia - especially despair and self-perceived "sinfulness" arising out of a refusal on some level to relinquish the body and its desires as the sole locus of pleasure and meaning.
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Post by apelpis on Mar 6, 2008 16:44:16 GMT -5
I know I'm a terrible bigot but could you please save the high philosophy for PM's?
My head hurts trying to read all those three-syllable monstrosities of yours.
Whiskey Forever.
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Post by Stephanie on Mar 6, 2008 18:36:43 GMT -5
apelpis--Why do you think it bothers you so much? I'm genuinely curious. There are many conversations here in which I have no interest, so I simply scroll past or ignore them. I've never felt compelled to ask someone to stop having a particular conversation simply because it didn't suit my taste.
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Post by alyosha on Mar 7, 2008 2:59:23 GMT -5
Kierkegaard is great. I really enjoyed reading his book, "Fear and Trembling." With regards to Hegel and his master/slave dialectic though, another way of looking at is that, Hegel asserts that consciousness (and existence) unfolds in a process of: thesis, antithesis and synthesis. The master is representative of independent consciousness and the slave is representative of dependent consciousness. The synthesis aspect is where through the labour of slave, independence is provided to the master. Nevertheless, through this labour the master is ultimately dependent upon the slave. From this, Hegel posits that all existence is both separate and in connection with otherness (alterity). There is a struggle for recognition. In addition, it is "Spirit" (which is geist-the aggregation of mind, spirit and ghost-not at all in an explicitly Christian sense) which enables and motivates recognition (in this instance spirit is like mind and thought). Furthermore, the master and slave might at first seem distinct, but they are but two moments in time--always involved in relatedness. This process of unfolding (the master/slave dialectic) and the perpetual relatedness bound up in contradiction is what I saw momentarily in the complexity of "Saturnalia." The themes of guilt and atonement, turbidity and clarity, condemnation and salvation, and the profane and the sacred for example, within "Saturnalia," are in a way fettered to this process of unfolding and relatedness. Initially, the title alone reminded me of the master/slave dialectic because of the playful inversion enacted in the Roman festival of Saturnalia... That being said, this correlation is reductionist and doesn't come close to expressing the labyrinth of feeling which is awakened in the richness of this album.
Also, I couldn't be more in agreement with what Stephanie has said with regards to apelpis. I too have " never felt compelled to ask someone to stop having a particular conversation simply because it didn't suit my taste." So please scroll on. I didn't mean to offend or aggravate in any way. It was just an impression that I had felt about "Saturnalia." "Saturnalia" inspires and it should inspire in a variety of different ways. The multiple dimensions and layers of "Saturnalia" are precisely part of its allure and its charm.
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mokkz
New Recruit
Posts: 14
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Post by mokkz on Mar 7, 2008 5:27:34 GMT -5
Kierkegaard is great. I really enjoyed reading his book, "Fear and Trembling." this is hilarious. you both seem so desperate to give your credentials for spouting this crap in order for us to go, 'ooh, those 2 are intelligent, aren't they?' so, big Lanegan fans? been to many good gigs recently?
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mokkz
New Recruit
Posts: 14
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Post by mokkz on Mar 7, 2008 5:33:34 GMT -5
Kierkegaard is great. I really enjoyed reading his book, "Fear and Trembling." With regards to Hegel and his master/slave dialectic though, another way of looking at is that, Hegel asserts that consciousness (and existence) unfolds in a process of: thesis, antithesis and synthesis. The master is representative of independent consciousness and the slave is representative of dependent consciousness. The synthesis aspect is where through the labour of slave, independence is provided to the master. Nevertheless, through this labour the master is ultimately dependent upon the slave. From this, Hegel posits that all existence is both separate and in connection with otherness (alterity). There is a struggle for recognition. In addition, it is "Spirit" (which is geist-the aggregation of mind, spirit and ghost-not at all in an explicitly Christian sense) which enables and motivates recognition (in this instance spirit is like mind and thought). Furthermore, the master and slave might at first seem distinct, but they are but two moments in time--always involved in relatedness. This process of unfolding (the master/slave dialectic) and the perpetual relatedness bound up in contradiction is what I saw momentarily in the complexity of "Saturnalia." The themes of guilt and atonement, turbidity and clarity, condemnation and salvation, and the profane and the sacred for example, within "Saturnalia," are in a way fettered to this process of unfolding and relatedness. Initially, the title alone reminded me of the master/slave dialectic because of the playful inversion enacted in the Roman festival of Saturnalia... That being said, this correlation is reductionist and doesn't come close to expressing the labyrinth of feeling which is awakened in the richness of this album. Also, I couldn't be more in agreement with what Stephanie has said with regards to apelpis. I too have " never felt compelled to ask someone to stop having a particular conversation simply because it didn't suit my taste." So please scroll on. I didn't mean to offend or aggravate in any way. It was just an impression that I had felt about "Saturnalia." "Saturnalia" inspires and it should inspire in a variety of different ways. The multiple dimensions and layers of "Saturnalia" are precisely part of its allure and its charm. this is the most cringeworthy faux-intellectual conversation i have ever had the misfortune to read. i should note that i have worked as a college lecturer, to give that some context into the student philosophising i have had to deal with in my time. i don't believe for a second that you would speak this way in person, so why bother here? can i also point out that this thread is the Saturnalia Reviews thread, with links to press reviews. there is a Saturnalia Thoughts thread for you to expunge your English Lit drivel upon us... and now, let us heed the words of Mark Lanegan, regarding his songwriting process... and now i feel the need to randomly say.... 'pragmatic' and mention a writer. Hegel was an imbecile, to all accounts and purposes. but i don't think this is the place to discuss such matters.
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mokkz
New Recruit
Posts: 14
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Post by mokkz on Mar 7, 2008 5:36:20 GMT -5
This review is so poorly written, I literally was laughing out loud by the second paragraph. Maybe English isn't the writer's first language? finally, for the 3rd and final act of my response to this wrongthreaded theorising- 'so all you critics (of critics) sit alone.. you're no better than me, for what you've shown'
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Post by apelpis on Mar 7, 2008 6:08:54 GMT -5
Mokkly, thank you.
Excellently put.
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Post by maidli2 on Mar 7, 2008 7:08:56 GMT -5
Thanks Mokkly I respect Stephanie and Alyosha for their contributions to the forum, but right.... develop your thoughts and theories by e-mail or pm.
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Post by alyosha on Mar 7, 2008 7:32:26 GMT -5
Never fear, oh great and illustrious, ex-college lecturer, I will immediately refrain from adding any more reviews or personal opinions to this thread. The irony which is so embedded in your vitriolic rants, reeks of holier-than-thou, chat-room elitism. And you were the one accusing me of being hubris? And your right, fans of Mark Lanegan should only interpret his music through your obviously jaded, provincial and slobbering, fan-boy perspective. I had heard about onewhiskey being looked down upon because of this board, and it's no wonder when there's rancorous, holier-than-thou members like yourself. I signed up about a week ago and was reluctant to, despite being a Lanegan fan for years and years, because I was apprehensive about this exact sort of thing. I was uneasy about the possibility of having to deal with bitter, troll-like fans who compulsively need to prove their fan seniority/superiority over others. Shall I insert a random quote from Lanegan to redeem myself with you? Thanks for your warm welcome.
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Post by Stephanie on Mar 7, 2008 8:05:30 GMT -5
Kierkegaard is great. I really enjoyed reading his book, "Fear and Trembling." this is hilarious. you both seem so desperate to give your credentials for spouting this crap in order for us to go, 'ooh, those 2 are intelligent, aren't they?' so, big Lanegan fans? been to many good gigs recently? No, this is hilarious. Credentials? What are you talking about? You're the one throwing out your "credentials." You know what kills me? People here don't seem to want to talk much about this music, whether or not any philosophy is involved. People are really excited to talk about the ethics of downloading or throwing puppies off of cliffs, but on this end of the board, it's mostly crickets unless people start talking about LPs vs. CDs. I've tried to start many conversations about music that do not involve any of the things to which you object, and have gotten very little response, over and over again. I finally get someone wanting to talk about the music and all it brings up for them, and a chorus of people join in trying to shut it down. I'm not desperate to prove anything about myself here (do you really think I'd take pains to come across as intellectual in such a heated anti-intellectual environment?). I just want to talk about the fucking music, and what it means to people, not record players, puppy throwing, or how much I hate Isobel Campbell (which I don't).
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Post by Twinkletoes on Mar 7, 2008 8:33:04 GMT -5
Someone's needs to read the book on forum etiquette....sheesh.
JK
Steph, there's a general discussion area here and really I don't think what youve done by taking this thread completely off topic is a huge bad thing (it was off topic wasn't it, I kinda skipped over it) anyway, sometimes when 2 people share a discussion it's sometimes okay to take it to PM's and I think that's what is being suggested. So although you think there's nothing wrong with the discussion you are having and you don't feel that the discussion on this thread was anything interesting anyway, when other members are asking you to take it elsewhere it doesn't get anymore clearer than that. You keep bumping this thread and no-one is interested in what you're talking about so stop hogging the thread already. It's not like we're all unintelligent or we don't understand free flowing conversation but, you're also putting other discussions down like the "puppy throwing" one when quite frankly although you have no interest in that conversation it is a conversation in it's own thread. I mean if we kept bumping this thread with the "puppy throwing" shit, I think you would even start getting annoyed.
If you want your discussion to be open to other people instead of the 2 of you then take it to the General Discussion area.....start a new thread.
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Post by e on Mar 7, 2008 8:38:33 GMT -5
I just want to talk about the fucking music, and what it means to people, not record players, puppy throwing, or how much I hate Isobel Campbell (which I don't). the topic about "the puppy" is not on this section of the board,so STOP BITCHING about it. p.s. you have talked about copyrights for 2 pages on the magnet mazine thread
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Post by Stephanie on Mar 7, 2008 8:52:47 GMT -5
My point was not that I think non-music-related posts don't have their place here, it was that the level of activity on those threads vs. the level of activity on threads related to discussing the music strikes me as odd. You certainly can't blame me for the lack of discussion here that is relevant to the music. My frustration is that the only time people here generally engage me in a conversation is when it does not have to do with the music.
e, you got mad that no one was discussing the Magnet article, but yet did not participate in or contribute much to the discussion yourself. The reason that off-topic conversation went on was because multiple people wanted to participate, unlike when the topic was actually the article.
I can see that the forum is following the rules for Human Behavior 101, which is "Chase the kid with glasses off the cliff," so I'm not sure there's much point in trying to have a dialogue about this.
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Post by ispi on Mar 7, 2008 8:55:48 GMT -5
Stephanie, please keep something in mind before you keep preaching- you've only been a member here for one month. You're welcome to make as many observations as you like, but it's a little too soon to think you understand how things are/how they should be, and it's definately too soon for you to be making suggestions for how people could act differently.
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Post by Twinkletoes on Mar 7, 2008 9:02:01 GMT -5
Steph, Although you think that music discussions should be more relevant than any other topics on a music fan forum, music is subjective and I don't think people tend to analyse it as much as you do. I have been skipping over your thoughts because, for staters too 'wordy" not like I don't like words or how people express themselves with them...but, you're a bit redudant and I'm a believer in K.I.S.S. (not the band)
Anyway, People tend to talk alot more about general things, because it's easy conversation and people generally come to forums out of boredom.
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Post by Stephanie on Mar 7, 2008 9:05:01 GMT -5
I would not have raised my thoughts about how things are or should be here if people had not decided to hypocritically attack me for the very same things they are doing, and to an even greater extent than I am doing them. People keep lighting into me for going off-topic, but then there is very little response to my on-topic posts. The only reason I came here in the first place was to talk about this music and its personal significance, which has mostly been a dismal failure here.
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Post by Twinkletoes on Mar 7, 2008 9:05:13 GMT -5
Stephanie, please keep something in mind before you keep preaching- you've only been a member here for one month. You're welcome to make as many observations as you like, but it's a little too soon to think you understand how things are/how they should be, and it's definately too soon for you to be making suggestions for how people could act differently. But, Stepahanie knows so much and she needs to tell us all how much she knows.....don't you get that!
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