|
|
Post by Psychotropic Snake on Jan 13, 2012 3:22:00 GMT -5
I don't know how can you pay attention to the beat on such a wonderful song, Mark's voice and lyrics + the guitar lines made the song. This song will be played @ the grammy awards next year. The beat reclaimed attention to itself in a way that bugs me. It gives too much of a samey feeling throughout. I think somewhat could've been added percussion-wise when the "The devil's ascended..." part comes in. |
|
|
|
Post by neutro on Jan 13, 2012 3:41:28 GMT -5
I know what you're talking about, the beat sounds the same for the whole time, but this song is such a trip that i can't pay attention to the beat at all.
I'M IN LOVE WITH THIS SONG, even if it's a sad song about an hospital.
|
|
|
|
Post by bennyboy on Jan 13, 2012 4:01:24 GMT -5
I don't know how can you pay attention to the beat on such a wonderful song, Mark's voice and lyrics + the guitar lines made the song. This song will be played @ the grammy awards next year. Agreed. The song is perfectly realised. The term 'elegiac' has been used in the Word review to refer to the tone of the album as a whole, and I think it fits 'Harborview Hospital' well. To quote from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegiac : The "elegy" was originally a classical form with few English examples. However, in 1751, Thomas Gray wrote "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard". That poem inspired numerous imitators, and soon both the revived Pindaric ode and "elegy" were commonplace. Gray used the term "elegy" for a poem of solitude and mourning, and not just for funereal (eulogy) verse. He also freed the elegy from the Classical elegiac meter.
Afterward, Samuel Taylor Coleridge argued that the elegiac is the form "most natural to the reflective mind," and it may be upon any subject, so long as it reflects on the poet himself. Coleridge was quite aware of the fact that his definition conflated the elegiac with the lyric, but he was emphasizing the recollected and reflective nature of the lyric he favored and referring to the sort of elegy that had been popularized by Gray. Similarly, William Wordsworth had said that poetry should come from "emotions recollected in tranquility" (Preface to Lyrical Ballads, emphasis added). After the Romantics, "elegiac" slowly returned to its narrower meaning of verse composed in memory of the dead.So here, euphoric synth backing is evocative of dawn sunrises and the uplift at the end of the vocal melody line meets that sense of optimism in a dovetailed counterpoint to the reflective sadness of the lyrics. Here's a guy revisiting his - almost literal - 'haunts', a place he hung around in his junkie vacancy like a lonely ghost. And while he has somehow managed to escape his own tragic fate, he is empathetically joined to the painful reality of both the memory of his past and the presence of those still trapped there, and that dichotomy of hope tinged with regret is beautifully captured throughout. |
|
|
|
Post by neutro on Jan 13, 2012 4:17:47 GMT -5
good post bennyboy
|
|
|
|
Post by neutro on Jan 13, 2012 4:23:31 GMT -5
Guitar playing sparse arpeggiated lines with clean, chorused sound and lots of U2-esque reverb/delay? Check. Music Technology Lecturer & Recording Studio Manager/Engineer with a decade of critical listening experience  There's nothing u2-esque on this song. Regards, Paul McGuinness |
|
|
|
Post by Psychotropic Snake on Jan 13, 2012 4:33:25 GMT -5
Still, I don't like the beats. Too much repetition, I'm not into that. The rest is fine.
|
|
|
|
Post by bennyboy on Jan 13, 2012 4:38:39 GMT -5
Still, I don't like the beats. Too much repetition, I'm not into that. The rest is fine. Show me a song that isn't repetitive. Life and nature are built on repetition and patterns. What noise does your heart make? Keep an open one. |
|
|
|
Post by neutro on Jan 13, 2012 4:46:18 GMT -5
That said, Mark is stylistically clearly 'going for' a sound here. He knows what he wants, and none of this is by chance or accident. WHO CARES ? The song is absolutely epic, mind blowing, breathtaking, deep... and i can go on for the next 10 pages if you want. |
|
|
|
Post by myname on Jan 13, 2012 4:50:48 GMT -5
Right, I'm off. I can't stand this neutro prick (who has been banned more than once for upsetting regulars on here after making horrendously prejudiced and offensive remarks under the username 'e').
No idea why the mods have allowed him back, and none of them seem to have any explanation or justification for his re-appearance.
'Bye!
|
|
|
|
Post by Psychotropic Snake on Jan 13, 2012 4:51:45 GMT -5
Still, I don't like the beats. Too much repetition, I'm not into that. The rest is fine. Show me a song that isn't repetitive. Life and nature are built on repetition and patterns. What noise does your heart make? Keep an open one. Songs don't have to keep the same beat throughout for 4 minutes. Can't we just agree to disagree? |
|
|
|
Post by bennyboy on Jan 13, 2012 4:54:31 GMT -5
Sure, no worries.
|
|
|
|
Post by neutro on Jan 13, 2012 5:12:45 GMT -5
Show me a song that isn't repetitive. Life and nature are built on repetition and patterns. What noise does your heart make? Keep an open one. Songs don't have to keep the same beat throughout for 4 minutes. Can't we just agree to disagree? Sure, but don't you think that - in this particular song - the beat is the less important aspect ? I must admit it: initially, when i've read the word "electronic" in the description of this record, i wasn't happy at all...i was kinda disappointed because i was looking for a sound like "bubblegum", and i wasn't thrilled after the first listen of Gravedigger's song....BUT after I've listened to Harborview Hospital I have "accepted" this kind of sound even for a Lanegan record, and Blues Funeral could be one of my favorite Lanegan records even if it's an "electronic record" from the first to the last song...and it's strange, because i'm not a "fan" of this genre. |
|
|
|
Post by Psychotropic Snake on Jan 13, 2012 5:26:31 GMT -5
Songs don't have to keep the same beat throughout for 4 minutes. Can't we just agree to disagree? Sure, but don't you think that - in this particular song - the beat is the less important aspect ? I must admit it: initially, when i've read the word "electronic" in the description of this record, i wasn't happy at all...i was kinda disappointed because i was looking for a sound like "bubblegum", and i wasn't thrilled after the first listen of Gravedigger's song....BUT after I've listened to Harborview Hospital I have "accepted" this kind of sound even for a Lanegan record, and Blues Funeral could be one of my favorite Lanegan records even if it's an "electronic record" from the first to the last song...and it's strange, because i'm not a "fan" of this genre. I'm a fan of a lot of electronica artists (Four Tet, some Autechre and Squarepusher, Massive Attack and Orbital, to name a few) and what I had in mind to "improve" the beats (which I think are just as important as the rest of the music) is a technique that is often used in dance-techno tracks: the addition of small subtle details that lead to the final crescendo. Since the beats have a dancey feel to them, I think it would've paid to have placed a few percussive details to the main beat, it would've been a nice addition to the soaring atmosphere of the song. Otherwise, The beat could've been placed somewhat later in the song, not right from the start. I want to clarify that I'm not beat-obsessed: any other addition would've provided a nice effect. I just feel like it misses something. But the beat sounds particularly minimalistic and since there's no chorus or middle section to give a change of pace, I thought of the beats. Not knocking the track off, mind you. Just a thought. |
|
|
|
Post by bennyboy on Jan 13, 2012 5:30:59 GMT -5
In a small interview for Q magazine this month, they ask pretty much the same questions as they did in Mojo, and he repeats the point about how he composed some of the songs on Blues Funeral on the keyboard rather than guitar. That's important, I think, as the two instruments often produce completely different rhythmic results.
He also gets asked about what he got from the seven years of collaborative work since Bubblegum.
His response is telling - he says he learned a lot from all that experience and enjoyed working with Soulsavers particularly, because that electronic side of things scratched an itch. He mentions someone telling him that electronic artists secretly want to be rock musicians and rock musicians wanting to be electronic. So I think its something he saw as fulfilling an urge and providing new perspective on his songwriting.
I think if you approach this song and the album in particular with an open mind and with the view that it is not retreading past ground then that will be the best attitude and will reap rewards. I have never understood that deep division between rock and electronic audiences, as when push comes to shove all music is about making air move.
|
|
|
|
Post by Psychotropic Snake on Jan 13, 2012 5:34:46 GMT -5
In a small interview for Q magazine this month, they ask pretty much the same questions as they did in Mojo, and he repeats the point about how he composed some of the songs on Blues Funeral on the keyboard rather than guitar. That's important, I think, as the two instruments often produce completely different rhythmic results. He also gets asked about what he got from the seven years of collaborative work since Bubblegum. His response is telling - he says he learned a lot from all that experience and enjoyed working with Soulsavers particularly, because that electronic side of things scratched an itch. He mentions someone telling him that electronic artists secretly want to be rock musicians and rock musicians wanting to be electronic. So I think its something he saw as fulfilling an urge and providing new perspective on his songwriting. I think if you approach this song and the album in particular with an open mind and with the view that it is not retreading past ground then that will be the best attitude and will reap rewards. I have never understood that deep division between rock and electronic audiences, as when push comes to shove all music is about making air move. I agree. I listen to all kinds of stuff and coincidentally I'm blasting an Air Liquide record right now. I would love to listen to Mark playing with two orchestras, African musicians or recording an all-out psychedelic record with glockenspiels and backward guitars. Like I said in my last post I just thought this one needed something else. Mark "going electronic" is perfectly fine for me. |
|
|
|
Post by neutro on Jan 13, 2012 5:47:06 GMT -5
Sure, but don't you think that - in this particular song - the beat is the less important aspect ? I must admit it: initially, when i've read the word "electronic" in the description of this record, i wasn't happy at all...i was kinda disappointed because i was looking for a sound like "bubblegum", and i wasn't thrilled after the first listen of Gravedigger's song....BUT after I've listened to Harborview Hospital I have "accepted" this kind of sound even for a Lanegan record, and Blues Funeral could be one of my favorite Lanegan records even if it's an "electronic record" from the first to the last song...and it's strange, because i'm not a "fan" of this genre. I'm a fan of a lot of electronica artists (Four Tet, some Autechre and Squarepusher, Massive Attack and Orbital, to name a few) and what I had in mind to "improve" the beats (which I think are just as important as the rest of the music) is a technique that is often used in dance-techno tracks: the addition of small subtle details that lead to the final crescendo. Since the beats have a dancey feel to them, I think it would've paid to have placed a few percussive details to the main beat, it would've been a nice addition to the soaring atmosphere of the song. Otherwise, The beat could've been placed somewhat later in the song, not right from the start. I want to clarify that I'm not beat-obsessed: any other addition would've provided a nice effect. I just feel like it misses something. But the beat sounds particularly minimalistic and since there's no chorus or middle section to give a change of pace, I thought of the beats. Not knocking the track off, mind you. Just a thought. I'm not a "fan" of the 80s electronic records, but i like the "modern" electronic too (unkle,massive attack, portishead ecc). I know what you mean when you talk about percussive details....something between unkle beats and the soulsavers ? Alain Johannes is an incredible musician, not a "beatmaker", but he's not the first that i would have chosen to produce an "electronic record", so my question is: why mark has not chosen to work with a "real" and more experienced electronic producer ? |
|
|
|
Post by Psychotropic Snake on Jan 13, 2012 5:50:44 GMT -5
I'm a fan of a lot of electronica artists (Four Tet, some Autechre and Squarepusher, Massive Attack and Orbital, to name a few) and what I had in mind to "improve" the beats (which I think are just as important as the rest of the music) is a technique that is often used in dance-techno tracks: the addition of small subtle details that lead to the final crescendo. Since the beats have a dancey feel to them, I think it would've paid to have placed a few percussive details to the main beat, it would've been a nice addition to the soaring atmosphere of the song. Otherwise, The beat could've been placed somewhat later in the song, not right from the start. I want to clarify that I'm not beat-obsessed: any other addition would've provided a nice effect. I just feel like it misses something. But the beat sounds particularly minimalistic and since there's no chorus or middle section to give a change of pace, I thought of the beats. Not knocking the track off, mind you. Just a thought. I'm not a "fan" of the 80s electronic records, but i like the "modern" electronic too (unkle,massive attack, portishead ecc). I know what you mean when you talk about percussive details....something between unkle beats and the soulsavers ? Alain Johannes is an incredible musician, not a "beatmaker",and but he's not the first that i would have chosen to produce an "electronic record", so my question is: why mark has not chosen to work with a "real" and more experienced electronic producer ? Maybe Mark wanted to approach the "genre" his own way. Not really sure. I think that's a very good question. The comparison you suggested is a good one... it would've been good to make the beat a little more complex, slowly, as the track went on. That would've created a nice effect when the song stops and leaves the keyboards to fade out. Still it sounds good and it gets me wondering about the rest of the record. |
|
|
|
Post by Lungsey on Jan 13, 2012 6:15:33 GMT -5
Right, I'm off. I can't stand this neutro prick (who has been banned more than once for upsetting regulars on here after making horrendously prejudiced and offensive remarks under the username 'e'). No idea why the mods have allowed him back, and none of them seem to have any explanation or justification for his re-appearance. 'Bye! Mod's reply: we do not actually have to explain or justify anyone's reregistering, whether they're appearing under the same username or a new one. We do not keep a book with every IP-address nor do we automatically keep track of banned people's IP-addresses. We reply to unnecessary behaviour either by PM or in public. Like i did the other day. Overall that is enough to keep this place nice and easy going. In the past we banned people quicker and got scolded for it and were blamed for over-moderating, acting like "futuristic secret police", nazi's and worse. What do you expect us to do? Don't feel you have to answer that. Just reregister whenever you feel like it. |
|
|
|
Post by Lungsey on Jan 13, 2012 6:16:06 GMT -5
Now on with today's business: Harborview Hospital.
|
|
|
|
Post by neutro on Jan 13, 2012 6:22:09 GMT -5
I'm not a "fan" of the 80s electronic records, but i like the "modern" electronic too (unkle,massive attack, portishead ecc). I know what you mean when you talk about percussive details....something between unkle beats and the soulsavers ? Alain Johannes is an incredible musician, not a "beatmaker",and but he's not the first that i would have chosen to produce an "electronic record", so my question is: why mark has not chosen to work with a "real" and more experienced electronic producer ? Maybe Mark wanted to approach the "genre" his own way. Not really sure. I think that's a very good question. The comparison you suggested is a good one... it would've been good to make the beat a little more complex, slowly, as the track went on. That would've created a nice effect when the song stops and leaves the keyboards to fade out. Still it sounds good and it gets me wondering about the rest of the record. This is not a critic, just my 2 cents: Mark should have worked on this new album like Dulli did for Dynamite Steps (and even the other twilight singers records). Dulli loves working with the mellotron and i think he's able to program beats ("On the corner" has been created while Greg has turned on the drum machine on Dave Catching organ and he couldn't turn it off), but to take care of the same details that you are talking about he has preferred to call Steve Nalepa (electronic music producer and composer). And keep in mind that dulli works on almost every record with a "team" of musicians (almost the same ones since the first twilight singers record), that's why all his Twilight Singers records are more curated in the details. This is the MAIN difference in the music of Lanegan and Dulli, the details. |
|
|
|
Post by bennyboy on Jan 13, 2012 6:35:54 GMT -5
I'm looking forward to hearing the proper album version with all its sonic detail - bear in mind we havent had an official stream of the song, let alone a lossless version yet, so some of the nuances will be lost.
Overall though, I think the song works brilliantly as a kind of meditative sound poem.
|
|
|
|
Post by beyondthepale on Jan 13, 2012 7:14:26 GMT -5
all music is about making air move. Nice. One of my favourite quotes is from Spiritualized's Jason Pierce saying: What (I) wanted was “to have people in a room, to use Jim Dickinson’s line, ‘pushing air around.’” |
|
|
|
Post by beyondthepale on Jan 13, 2012 7:17:09 GMT -5
Right, I'm off. I can't stand this neutro prick (who has been banned more than once for upsetting regulars on here after making horrendously prejudiced and offensive remarks under the username 'e'). 'Bye! That's a shame. We're losing too many good people lately.  |
|
|
|
Post by neutro on Jan 13, 2012 7:29:40 GMT -5
I'm looking forward to hearing the proper album version with all its sonic detail - bear in mind we havent had an official stream of the song, let alone a lossless version yet, so some of the nuances will be lost. Overall though, I think the song works brilliantly as a kind of meditative sound poem. I'm thinking about another interpretation, maybe the beat is so minimalistic because we must pay more attention to the lyrics.... |
|
|
|
Post by bennyboy on Jan 13, 2012 7:33:30 GMT -5
It's a heatbeat of sorts.
|
|
